Talk:Seven and the Ragged Tiger

Seven and the Ragged Tiger has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: August 5, 2023. (Reviewed version).

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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

https://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2009/08/duran-duran-the-reflex/

Moving to proper capitalization

I am moving this to Seven and the Ragged Tiger, (note the lowercase "and the"), per WikiProject Music standards (Section 3, #10), and per the capitalization on the band's official site [1]. Very nicely written article! Catherine | talk 04:00, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Videos

I am very curious about the following assertion:

The ["Union of the Snake"] video was one of the first to be filmed on 35mm film stock, instead of videotape.

Most videos before "Union of the Snake" (including Duran Duran's old videos) were shot on film (though I don't know if 35mm was commonly used). A few examples: Wall of Voodoo's "Mexican Radio," Eurythmics' "Sweet Dreams Are Made of This," Dio's "Rainbow in the Dark," The Cure's "The Walk." In fact, I think videos shot on videotape would be the exception (not counting videotaped footage from another TV show, which was sometimes broadcast as "a video" on M-TV). -- Gyrofrog 07:10, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps I didn't understand the source material correctly then; several of the books and articles I used as references made a point that this was a first for video -- perhaps there was a finer distinction on the 35mm part. Please feel free to find a better wording for the sentence. — Catherine\^talk 02:18, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the sentence. It had been reworded to read "The video, like many previous Duran videos, was once again filmed on 35mm film stock instead of videotape". As such, there is nothing distinctive about it and doesn't warrant a mention (at least not with this wording). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clean-up

Most of the article's content is duplicated for some reason (perhaps an errant cut-and-paste). I have deleted the duplicate content. -- Gyrofrog 07:10, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"The Reflex" was #1 in the UK for 4 weeks, and for 2 weeks in the US, according to Billboard magazine. Where did the 5 weeks at the top statement come from? 76.22.201.109 05:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

Passed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:02, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Seven and the Ragged Tiger/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Thebiguglyalien (talk · contribs) 03:22, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll post a review for this some time in the next few days. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:22, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

zmbro I've reviewed the article. Pretty good all around, just a handful of minor issues and some questions about the wording.

I think the changes (or the justifications where changes were not made) are sufficient. I made a few edits to change one more backlash to pushback, to add Template:Inflation, and to change "they attracted tabloid criticism" to "this attracted tabloid criticism". With that, I think this is a Good Article. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well-written

I've made a few minor copyedits for grammar.

Lead:

It might be worth listing the album's singles in the lead.

Added

scathing critical reviews – Informal

Fixed

Background:

By the start of 1983, Duran Duran had established themselves as one of the biggest bands in the world. – Even if this is supported by sources, there's probably a less WP:PEACOCK-ish way to word this. I'm also not sure if "by the start of" is the right phrase here (though it could be).

By 1983; how about "one of the most successful"?

They received hate from the press and their musical peers – "Received hate" is informal and seems gossipy.

How about "were negatively received by"?

Duran Duran underwent an exhaustive press tour and live performances from March to April – It's unclear what the press tour and live performances entailed. Was it promotional work for the album that hadn't been recorded yet?

Clarified (for Rio)

Recording history:

They almost immediately attracted tabloid criticism. – "almost immediately" seems informal, and it's unclear what tabloid criticism this is referring to

To my understanding, since they were one of the biggest bands in the world at that time, the press were on them a lot, covering almost everything they did. They went to France to record to escape some of the media attention and to avoid paying high UK taxes. Here I've basically paraphrased Malins' book fairly similarly. What do you think would be the best way to resolve this? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sessions began timidly – Is timidly the right word?

Changed to "The sessions commenced slowly due to a lack of new material"

creativity was at an all-time low seems informal.

Shortened to just 'was low'

EMI, believing Little's inexperience as a producer was slowing down progress – This whole sentence runs on and might be better suited as two sentences.

Fixed

The group's time at AIR proved irritating – Who found it irritating? Right now it's stated as an objective fact.

Fixed

passed off as whiny and unprofessional – Informal. If this is an exact quote, it should be quoted. Otherwise, a more formal description of the reaction is appropriate.

It is a direct quote that's my bad; added quote marks

due to inflated egos and the presence of girlfriends – It's unclear how these things caused tensions or who believes that the band members had "inflated egos".

How about we remove this bit entirely? I think it works fine without it.

What is a Duran Duran supporter in this context? Different wording might be better

Removed entirely

contributed percussion – Is this grammatically correct? I'd think it would be something like "contributed to the band's percussion", but I'm not familiar with music jargon.

Yep that's how I've seen it worded on other articles

received backlash from John and Andy – "backlash" usually suggests criticism from a broad group

How about "pushback"? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 22:54, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Music and lyrics

boasts an echo of Roxy Music is a little too dramatic.

Shortened to echoed

the dark side of fame the band were experiencing – should band be singular or plural?

In British English bands are referred to as plural

a lavish photoshoot – "lavish" might not be necessary.

Removed

The shoot reportedly cost upwards of £65,000 – Would this benefit from a template to adjust for inflation?

I actually did not know there was one and do not know how to do that. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 22:54, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Release and singles:

a Mad Max-type road warrior – Was this specifically intended to invoke Mad Max? If so, it should say so. If not, a more direct description might be preferable.

Adjusted to "leather-wearing road warrior"; that's how Malins describes it as least – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

a great single for Duran Duran – Would "successful" or similar be more appropriate than "great"?

Fixed

It initially received backlash from EMI and Capitol – "backlash" doesn't fit here

"pushback"? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 22:54, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Critical reception:

In an extremely negative review – Informal

Removed

Tour:

The short Japanese leg of seven dates – This phrasing is confusing

Changed to "A short seven-date leg of Japan"

presence of girlfriends led to increased tensions – Again, it's not clear what this means in this case

Removed

Legacy:

five-piece lineup – Is this a standard term?

Yep as far as I know

boasting two CDs and one DVD – Informal

Changed to featuring

EMI refused to recall the reissue because complaints about its sound quality were "by far in the minority". – If this is EMI's opinion, then it should be attributed.

Fixed

Verifiable with no original research

All sources appear to be reliable. As I often do with music articles, I'll suggest limiting the use of direct quotes to when the specific wording is critical to the reader's understanding, especially in the "reception" section.

Sources by the band's members are not independent and should be attributed for anything beyond basic statements of fact. This isn't much of a problem throughout the article, but there are a few instances where one of them appears to speak on behalf of the entire band or for other people. This is more of a gray area on whether attribution is needed, so I'll leave it to your judgement:

the band members were worried the album would not be delivered on time
Duran Duran were Diana's favourite band, while Dire Straits were Charles's favourite
The band expressed distaste for the video
The band as a whole were not satisfied with the album musically
It initially received backlash from EMI and Capitol, who felt it was "too black" for Duran Duran.

All fixed.

Spot checks:

Henke (1984) – Both quotes are present in the source.
Buskin (2004) – Checked all 15 uses. All good except:
- had established themselves as one of the biggest bands in the world – I already recommended changing this above, but note that it's close paraphrasing (WP:CLOP).

Is it better now or should I rephrase more? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

- a 24-track mobile studio that was rented from North London's RAK Studios – CLOP

Fixed

Davis (2021) — Checked the following uses:
- p. 181 – Both good.
- pp 204–213 – Checked all four uses. All good except the source doesn't appear to mention "Original Sin".

I recall that's covered by John Taylor's memoir

Zaleski (2018) – Checked all four uses:
- spent three months working out demos and ideas. – CLOP

Fixed

- Does this support that it had a simultaneous worldwide release?

It does not. I now can't recall where I got that from. Reworded simply.

Broad in its coverage

The article does not go off topic at any point.

The background section doesn't have much background about this specific album. The coverage of their recent activities prior to this is relevant, but the article jumps immediately from their previous releases to the beginning of recording with only minimal detail of what happened in between. Was there any planning or pre-recording activity related to this album?

There really wasn't. After Rio was this huge success they basically did press and toured constantly and barely did any writing or recording, hence "The sessions commenced slowly due to a lack of new material". – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Some peacock language is listed under criterion one, otherwise all good.

Stable

No recent disputes.

Illustrated

The album cover has a valid non-free use rationale. One public domain image, and WP:AGF that all of the other images were uploaded by the creators. All images have helpful captions.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.